02:01:04 By Chris Gill
It's hard not to feel overwhelmed by the vast array of gold and
platinum albums hanging in the halls of the Underdogs’ Hollywood
recording studio. Everywhere you look are familiar album covers by the
top pop and R&B artists of the last decade — Mariah Carey, Britney
Spears, Pink, Michael Jackson, Toni Braxton, and Whitney Houston just
to name a few. The duo of Harvey Mason Jr. (son of jazz
drummer/Fourplay member Harvey Mason Sr.) and Damon Thomas may call
themselves the Underdogs, but if their success keeps growing at its
current rate, they’re going to need to change that name to the Top Dogs.
As impressive as this display of the Underdogs’ accomplishments
is, the real rewards of the duo’s success lie inside the walls of the
various studios located in their facility. Each room is decked out with
state-of-the-art equipment — digital mixing consoles, racks of outboard
processors, and computers loaded with Pro Tools and Logic. Thomas grins
as he opens the door to the main studio, revealing not only a brand new
96-channel SSL C200 digital console, but also the familiar face of
studio guitarist extraordinaire Michael Thompson, who is poised over a
virtual cityscape of effects pedals — blinking lights and all — like
Godzilla preparing to destroy Tokyo.
Mason and Thomas already enjoyed a successful history as
musicians, songwriters, and producers before the two started working
together in 2001. Thomas first made his mark producing tracks on
Brandy’s debut, moving on to work with hip-hop and R&B artists such
as Tupac and Babyface. Mason had a lucrative career as a studio
musician, mixer, and producer, eventually landing a gig as a songwriter
and engineer for Rodney Jerkins (profiled in our November 2003 issue).
From the moment they started working together, the Underdogs made
a huge impact on pop and R&B music. Their first collaborative
effort was writing and producing “I Like Them Girls,” the first single
from Tyrese’s debut album, which propelled the album to #10 on the
Billboard charts. A steady stream of successful projects followed,
including work on K-Ci & Jo Jo’s Emotional, Brian McKnight’s
U Turn, Stacie Orrico’s Stacie Orrico, and Justin Timberlake’s
Justified. They also produced songs for American Idol favorites Kelly
Clarkson and Ruben Studdard.
In August, 2003, the Underdogs signed a deal with Clive Davis and
J Records to form their own label and develop artists on their own.
Although the deal allows Mason and Thomas to produce other artists for
different labels (such as the projects they’re currently working on
with Craig David, Babyface, and Studdard), they’re already beginning to
focus most of their attention to their label and newly signed artists.
“We’re just getting started with the label,” says Mason. “We want
to put out music that is going to make a difference. We’re not trying
to become famous. We want our music to be the star.”
After listening to Michael Thompson lay down some sweet rhythm
guitar tracks, Mason and Thomas sat down with EQ to talk about their
all-encompassing approach to songwriting and production.
TEAMWORK
What influenced the two of you to form a production team?
Damon Thomas: I met Harvey when I was meeting with Rodney Jerkins to
discuss a possible collaboration. At the time we both had made
decisions to do our own separate thing outside of the situations we
were working in. Soon after that meeting Harvey moved to L.A., and he
called me up one day to let me know that he was living here. I was
really surprised and impressed that he called, so I suggested that we
get together to write some songs.
Harvey Mason Jr.: I wasn’t so keen on forming a partnership, though.
Damon said that he just wanted to write a couple songs and that he
wasn’t interested in a partnership either. The first song we wrote, “I
Like Them Girls,” got placed instantly with Tyrese and was his first
single. After that we just kept working on things together.
How did you go from writing songs together to producing?
Mason: We both come from production backgrounds, so it just worked out
that we ended up producing songs that we had written.
What is the key to forming a successful songwriting partnership?
Mason: First, you have to have mutual respect for each other. You can
write songs together all day long but you won’t get anywhere if you
don’t trust the opinion of the person you’re working with. You have to
respect their ideas. When Damon and I work together we’ll tell each
other if we like something or we’ll suggest something that we think
will work. Each person influences the other person. The important thing
is that we’re equal, which makes the partnership really work.
Thomas: There has to be some magic, too. There are a lot of songwriters
and producers out there, so you have to know how to find something
special. When we started working together we immediately knew it was
hot. We’ve never had an argument or disagreement about a song. Both of
us are very much in touch with what’s going on. I’ll be listening to
Lil Jon in my car and he’ll be listening to Coldplay. We share our
views on what we’re listening to and try to keep up with what’s going
on. If you want to be a producer, you’ve got to be in touch with what
the kids are listening to. You’ve got to watch TRL and things like
that. It doesn’t matter if you don’t agree with their programming and
how they do it — that’s what kids are buying. You have to be a
businessman and not so much of a musician. Try to be creative and do
what you love, but still be smart enough to know what the world wants
to hear. You can’t force people to listen to something they don’t like.
THE PRODUCTION TIP
What type of preparation do you do before you work with an artist?
Mason: Generally we don’t have a ton of time to do research. We’re
spontaneous and creative. We’ll get with the artist and listen to where
they’re coming from musically and what’s in their head. We try to
figure out where they want to go and go for it. If we spent a lot of
time analyzing an artist’s previous work I don’t think it would have
the same excitement.
Thomas: Craig David is a good example. We couldn’t do what he did two
albums ago. Music is changing so much every six months that you have
you to be looking ahead or you’ll just get lost. If you put out Born To
Do It today it wouldn’t sell. That’s not what kids are into. You have
to focus a little bit on where he came from so you don’t lose his
personality, but you also have to incorporate what’s going on now.
What is the difference between producing an inexperienced newcomer like
Ruben Studdard and a more established artist like Toni Braxton?
Thomas: We try to set the new artists apart from everybody else. With
an established artist like Toni Braxton you’ve got to remember who she
is and be careful to make sure she sounds the way people are used to
hearing her. Ruben is brand new, so you can develop an exciting new
sound that will make people remember him.
MAD SKILLS
You are both good musicians. What advantage does that give you as
producers?
Thomas: That’s important, but you also have to be able to write lyrics
and come up with a concept. We challenge each other, whether it’s
playing, drum programming, or whatever. If it ain’t hot, we have no
problem telling each other that.
Is it also important to know how to engineer a recording?
Thomas: We’ve been involved with that since the beginning, and you
should never get to the point where you’re not involved with the
engineering. A great kick and snare sound could be the one thing that
makes the whole song come together, especially on a hip-hop record. You
can’t always depend on an engineer to come up with the sounds you want
to hear. You have to come up with it and at least know where to start.
Mason: We’ve worked with our engineer Dave Russell [see sidebar] for
almost a year, so he knows what we like. The sound is a big part of a
track. When we’re writing a song, we’ll tweak the EQ while we’re
writing to make sure it sounds the way we hear it in our heads. That’s
an important part of our writing process. When it gets to the next
level, which is the preparation of the mix, that’s where our engineer
is most valuable. A lot of songwriters aren’t engineers, but almost
from the beginning our songs are coming out of our speakers sounding
close to how it will sound on the record.
Thomas: We can’t just hand something we’ve created to some random
engineer because they don’t know what we’re thinking. They don’t know
why the first or second or third kick sounds the way it does. They’ll
just mess with things and make it sound the way they think it should,
and that’s not always right for the song.
What’s the key to getting good drum sounds?
Thomas: You have to develop an ear for drum sounds so you can choose
the right ones. If you use the wrong kick and make it sound too big by
EQing it to death, it’s just going to be wrong. It might not go with
the bass or the guitars. You have to know how the kick and snare are
going to fit with all the other elements. Sometimes the kick and snare
can sound hot on their own, but when you put everything else in there
it doesn’t sound so hot any more. It’s important to get a good balance
of everything.
Mason: The key is to have a lot of different sounds at your disposal.
You need to try things and experiment. You can’t get married to one kit
and base everything around that on every song you record. We use a
different kick and snare for every song. We won’t just jam the same
kick into every record because we like it.
Thomas: We never go back to the same kit. And we always play around
with the sounds to make them sound like our own.
Mason: We like to experiment with new things and weird stuff. With all
the technology available today you can really get crazy. We use Logic
to write our songs and do sequencing, and we use Pro Tools for audio
recording and processing functions like EQ, sampling, resampling, and
plug-ins. You can change a sound drastically with both of those.
Thomas: We’ll take an element out of Logic, throw it into Pro Tools and
cut it up, mess it up, and send it back into Logic.
Mason: We like to experiment with plug-ins. We’ll use plug-ins in ways
that you aren’t supposed to use them — like putting a de-esser on a
snare — just to see what it sounds like. It doesn’t always sound right,
but sometimes it works. We might do so many things to a sound so nobody
will be able to copy it. That’s the beautiful thing about making music
these days. There are so many ways to come up with your own sounds.
[CMT] Bitcrusher is one of our favorite plug-ins, but we’ll try
everything.
OLD DOGS, NEW TRICKS
Why did you choose the SSL C200 for your main room console?
Mason: We chose everything in the studio for ease of use and sound
quality. We work really quickly, and we always have a lot of different
projects going on at once. We have matching Logic and Pro Tools rigs in
every room. As soon as I go to work on one of Damon’s songs, he’s
already starting to work on another one. I might be working on a song
and he’ll be recording an artist in another room. We need to be able to
transfer things back and forth easily.
Thomas: The SSL C200 has the best recall of any console. We used to
have an SSL J-series, and it would take hours to recall a mix. You have
to really get into the console to understand it, but once you do it
really works. With everything being digital today, it doesn’t really
make sense to have an analog console. It’s not necessary. There’s not a
record on the radio today that hasn’t seen Pro Tools at some point. The
kids buying the records can’t tell if something was recorded to tape.
They hear a hit, and that’s the bottom line. When they hear Outkast
singing “shake it like a Polaroid picture” they don’t care that it was
analog or not. I’ve had Pro Tools since 1996 back when everybody was
still using tape. Harvey has had it since 1990 when it was Sound
Designer. We’re doing everything on computers. Now even using a
keyboard and a drum machine is a thing of the past.
Vocals are the one thing that still exists in the analog domain. What
is your approach for recording vocals?
Mason: We’ll start with certain mics to get a feel for the sound and
then we’ll make adjustments. Our usual chain is a Sony C-800
microphone, an Avalon mic preamp, and a Summit compressor. We start
with that and see how it fits in the track. We keep the vocals dry when
we’re tracking, although we may make some EQ adjustments. It varies
depending on the vocalist. Some vocalists have a rumble in their voice
so you have to take that out.
How do you get vocalists to deliver their best performances in the
studio?
Thomas: Everybody is different.
Mason: That’s the hardest thing, but it’s also the most important. If
the writing is good and the track sounds great but the singer doesn’t
pull it off, then it’s all a waste. Sometimes you have to say nice
things to a singer to encourage them, but some people perform better
when you get them upset. It’s the producer’s job to figure out their
personality and determine what’s going to work.
Thomas: Sometimes it’s really simple, like making sure you’ve got the
right snacks there when they get in.
Mason: It’s always about getting the performance. There’s a lot of
psychology involved. A lot of producers will just go for it. We prefer
to really work with singers, and we don’t just jump into the
studio with them. Some singers like to punch in everything, but others
just like to sing. Some people will sit there and shoot the shit with
you for two hours before they even begin singing. You’ve got to sit
there with them and watch some TV, hang with them, and talk to them,
even though you might want to go right to work. But once they’re ready,
they’ll go in and knock it out. You’ve also got to be able to know when
something sounds right for a song, even though it may not be
technically perfect. Sometimes the singer may want to do something
over, but if it feels good and sounds right you should leave it alone.
Do you have to educate newer artists how to work?
Mason: It depends. We had this 12-year-old girl come in the studio, and
it seemed like she had been in the studio her whole life. Usually with
new people you have to spend a little more attention to them and teach
them how to work with a microphone in the studio or how to control
their voice.
You use a lot of synths in your productions. Are you using a lot of
soft synths?
Mason: We have a couple of Roland modules like the JV-5080, but we only
use them for a few things.
Thomas: Most of our hardware has one or two sounds that we can’t live
without. Everything else is soft synths.
Mason: We have almost every virtual instrument, and we’ll go through
them all looking for sounds. We really like the Emagic EXS sampler,
EVP-88, and Spectrasonics’ Trilogy and Stylus.
Thomas: Everything from the roota to the toota.
Mason: All of our drum sounds are on EXS. Sometimes we’ll bring
drummers into the studio to play whole songs because we want that feel.
But other times we’ll put things in Pro Tools and chop it up and
manipulate it. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a drummer, bass player,
or guitar player. We fiddle around with everything to make it sound the
way we want.
JUST THE DOG IN ME
It seems like the Underdogs sound is always changing.
Thomas: We don’t try to lock ourselves down to one sound. What we’re
doing today is going to sound different from what we’re doing tomorrow,
and it won’t sound like what we’ve done before. We’re always trying to
grow.
What are your goals as producers?
Thomas: We’re trying to make R&B music that kids can relate to.
Kids want hip-hop today, so you can’t totally dismiss it. We love
hip-hop and we love R&B. But kids don’t get much musical training
these days, especially in school. We wonder where all the new musicians
are going to come from. We get to work with great studio musicians like
Nathan East and Michael Thompson, but there’s no one coming up behind
them to take their place. We’re trying to educate a new generation and
give them something to aspire to. Everything is influenced by hip-hop
these days, whether it’s R&B or rock. Hip-hop is here to stay, and
you’ve got to understand that as well as know how to adapt that to the
music you’re making.
Mason: We really want to develop artists and help them develop
creatively throughout their careers. We want our label to be known as a
label that puts out great music, great records, and great songs by
great artists. It’s not about trying to catch one hit with one artist
and then move on to the next thing. We’re trying to write music that
will last and will still be remembered 10 or 20 years from now.
Thomas: We look back at people like Jimmy Jam and Terry Lewis. They
came along when the Linn Drum was the sound of hip-hop. Real musicians
hated that. But Jam and Lewis combined live music and drum machines and
came up with Rhythm Nation, which still sounds incredible today. We’re
trying to do a similar thing by incorporating hip-hop with R&B and
using computers to help us make exciting new music. A lot more kids are
making tracks these days, and, thanks to computers, they sound pretty
good. But they need to know how to write a song, which is more than
just laying down a bunch of sounds and beats. They need to learn to
play some instruments and how to sing.
Mason: You might have a great idea, but you have to know how to turn
that idea into a complete song.
A DOG’S LIFE Underdogs’
Engineer Dave Russell
“The first time I worked with Harvey and Damon I stayed up for
six days straight,” says Dave Russell, recalling his work with the
Underdogs on Victoria Beckham’s (a.k.a. Posh Spice) debut album. “When
they built their studio, they asked me to come work with them in L.A. I
guess they liked my work ethic.”
Russell left his London home for the sunny weather of Los Angeles
about a year ago and hasn’t looked back since. But he hasn’t had much
time to work on his tan, as Mason and Thomas have constantly kept him
busy working in the studio as their engineer. The duo relies on Russell
to see their projects through from tracking to the final mix to ensure
that the finished product sounds exactly the way they envisioned it.
It’s a big responsibility, but Russell’s track record with the
Underdogs has proven that he has the golden (and platinum) touch that
the duo requires.
Here are some of Russell’s thoughts about his favorite studio
tools and techniques.
What do you like the most about the SSL C200 console?
I grew up using the SSL G-series and Neve boards, but now I
prefer working with the C200 because the computer is so fast, easy to
use, and can recall an entire project in less than eight seconds. We
worked on the SSL MT for a while, but the C200’s computer is faster and
the bandwidth is a lot better — it’s 96kHz. We work on multiple
projects every day, so it would be impossible for us to have an analog
board. It’s too time-consuming to do recalls for each project.
I like to mix as I go along, and keep everything I do on the
board until we mix it down. With the C200, I have the luxury of a
96-channel desk with a knob for every control, and every knob movement
can be automated. If Damon and Harvey want to try something out on the
board, I can do it very quickly. It saves me a lot of time during
mixdown, because I can save everything we do while I’m working. With
the SSL you can use the old-school approach of working with two people
with both hands on the board at the same time. There’s a knob per
function, whereas the Euphonix boards we have in the other rooms are
menu driven, which means that a single knob handles multiple functions.
When you grab a knob on the SSL and turn it, something happens. I love
that. The C200 also has a 9-pin jack for locking up with Pro Tools and
Logic.
What is your approach for recording vocals?
Almost 70 percent of what I do is cut vocals. I try to stick to a
sonically clean sound and start with a very good vocal chain. I use
Sony C-800 convertible mics, Summit compressors, and Avalon mic
preamps. I’m also a big fan of the Neve and Manley gear. I use a lot of
that old, hi-fi tube stuff as well. In the mix I’ll add in more tube
stuff and maybe some reverb, like the TC Electronic M3000, which is
fantastic. Then I’ll try to polish it as much as I can.
Do you use any plug-ins in addition to the outboard processors?
I try not to go into a recording with tunnel vision. I’ll A/B a
lot of different compressors. Sometimes I’ll use a Pro Tools plug-in
and compare it with an outboard tube processor. I’m always comparing
things as I go along. Whatever sounds a little bit better will stay in
the mix. I like the Bomb Factory plug-ins a lot, and [Audio Ease]
Altiverb is great. I just got the API plug-in, which I’m into because I
love the API EQs. I can’t wait to try it out. It really depends on what
we’re going for. Sometimes we want a dirty sound, so I won’t rule out
using anything. Everything has a useful sound. You just have to figure
out where to use it.
We’re tech heads so we’re always getting the latest stuff. We’re
always searching the Internet for new things. We pay a lot of money for
some of these toys because they’re different and they bring something
to the table. My outboard rack has a lot of stuff in it, but I use all
of it. This is a great job because I always get to try different things.
What are your suggestions for getting big, punchy drum sounds that
don’t crowd a mix?
I’ll use a lot of compression on drums to tighten them up. A lot
of the drum sounds we’ve been using lately have been fairly trashy, so
the sounds aren’t always that big. We have a great room for recording
live drums, which helps. You can’t get a great live drum sound if you
don’t have a good-sounding room. Plus, we always have the best session
players coming through here, like Teddy Campbell. When you have great
players on a session, half of the work is already done for you. To make
the drums sound dirty, we’ll loop them and process them with all kinds
of things like plug-ins. I don’t always have time to experiment, so a
lot of times I just have to follow my instincts.